The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet[at]gmail.com> wrote in part:
- quote -

Did I say it did? Of course not. I maintain that usenet spam is
far less damaging than spray paint -- damaging no existing works
and easier to remove. You apparently do not agree but merely
repeat your disagreement without substantiation. I learn nothing.

- quote -

In all my years of owning many cellphones, I cannot recall ever having
received a telemarketting call. But I accept that others might have,
and there are clearly laws against such burdensome receipt (junk fax).
The key is a criminal complaint against the telemarketting firm for
repeated or harassing calls, a Federal felony. They're very careful
to stay [just] within the law because they know they annoy people.
That is why the DNC list mostly works.

- quote -

Again no. Both you and the ISP have technical means to filter
spam. Even moreso with proper NNTP clients not downloading full
articles unless requested for reading. It becomes a balancing
of the value of free speech against the value of tranquility.
Since the tranquility is little disturbed (except for hypersensitive
individuals such as yourself), and free speech has real positive
value that would likely be seriously impaired by attempts at
control, the correct legislative decision is to do nothing.

"There oughtta be a law" is an easy thing to say. But the law is a
very limited tool and its effectiveness can be seriously diminished
when pushed beyond its operating window into areas like prevention
(DHS) or complaintant-free crimes (DEA). The law becomes a victim
of it's own success.

- quote -

It is not misuse of government property for the police to
patrol to protect private property so long as it is reasonably
well-spread. And it is not a misuse of govt property for the police
to investigate a crime against private property. That is what
I mean by protecting private goods.

- quote -

Of course not. Your representatives took care of those details
for you. If people wanted the details, they'd become election issues.

- quote -

Difficult to tell. All species occupy ecological niches and
food chains. Eliminating one species may threaten the survival
of another, or allow a third to overgrow. Not simple.

- quote -

So? Lack of response doesn't mean lack of action.

- quote -

Seems there was action.

- quote -

Well, at some level, we cannot change. We breathe air.

- quote -

Caused by real or artificial (zoning-induced) shortage.

- quote -

Did you miss my point on demonetarization of silver and gold?
This is a direct consequence.

- quote -

So they took offense. Why not? That is their right.
So is yours to make your point. Diversity must embrace all
points-of-view, not merely minority ones.

But I'm afraid I must agree with the offended one but I suspect
for different reasons. The quip's author reveals themselves
as ignorant and combative: the purpose of arguing should not
be to win, but to learn. And the level of discourse should
be well above any level which could be described as "retarded"
(unless, of course, one of the partipants is).

-- Robert

Robert Redelmeier wrote:

- quote -

You have an excellent point, and one one that I agree with
wholeheartedly. Nonetheless, free speech does NOT include
spray-painting walls that don't belong to you.

- quote -

As it should. If you have to pay for every cellphone call you receive,
what should be done with telemarketers who call you on your cellphone?
I'm willing to kill them along with spammers, but you apparently see no
problem as it's a free speech issue. Nope, not if I have to pay for it.
Same with spam and sporge. Just because I pay my ISP a monthly fee
doesn't mean that it wouldn't be lower if the volumes of spam/sporge
were smaller.

- quote -

Yes. But "misuse of government property" can get you fired if somebody
really wants you gone.

- quote -

What makes you think that? Have you ever been given an opportunity to
vote for or against the spotted owls and pupfish? I haven't.

- quote -

'Twas ever thus. See my sig. Would you want to keep the anopheles
mosquito around if somebody finally figured out a way to kill it REALLY
dead? Aren't we better off because some species are no longer among us?

- quote -

I don't think google is set up to deal with user input of any sort. For
a couple of years, over a period of weeks every once in a while I get a
certain error message involving google. When it gets too annoying I
hunt down some sort of 'contact us' address and ask what it means and
what can I do about it. I've never received a response from any of
them, but after a few days the problem disappears only to reappear again
at a later date.

- quote -

Change happens all the time, but I'm pretty sure that the basics remain
the same.

- quote -

It started when real estate values zoomed and it took two incomes to
support a $quarter-million mortgage -- which homes are now considered
very close to substandard housing. Anybody here think that Campbell's
soup, the ordinary add-a-can-of-water kind as well as the fancy
no-extra-water-needed varieties, is worth $1.25 a can?

Enough. I got chewed out by somebody who took offense at my "Arguing on
usenet is like the special olympics -- even if you win, you're still
retarded" signature so I won't use it.

--
Cheers, Bev
------------------- Don't you just KNOW that there is more than one
Sierra Club member who is absolutely sure that the
dinosaurs died out because of something humans did?

RT wrote:

- quote -

Excellent idea. Charter subs usenet out to something called Highwinds,
who has been pretty responsive in the past...

--
Cheers, Bev
================================================== ==============
"Is there any way I can help without actually getting involved?"
-- Jennifer, WKRP

The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet[at]gmail.com> wrote in part:
- quote -

This is very far from certain. What is defaced? What is damaged?
Some additional traffic is carried, some postings appear. If people
didn't want to carry the traffic, they are under no obligation to
do so. Ditto for the postings. Some ISPs dont [see sidethread].

USENET looks very much like free speech which is heavily protected
under the US Consistition, AFAIK all US state constitutions and
many equivalent foundational documents in other countries. Governments
are quite properly reluctant to intervene. Why are you inviting them in?

Perhaps you are annoyed by the superfluous material. Get over it.
Free speech does not mean freedom from disturbing materials.
Quite the opposite, it practically encourages offense.

- quote -

No, even private goods get public protection. They get most of it.

- quote -

Two wrongs do not make a right. If stopping hwys for environmental
reasons is ultimately wrong. The people of California have decided
that biodiversity is an important element in their state and
believe they can impose restrictions on land use. I'm not sure I
can argue because many of their microclimates are indeed precarious.

- quote -

Zero and zero. Loon has no rights wrt google. The shareholders of
that corporation just decide to allow open access. They are free
to revoke it at any time. Perhaps if you wrote a polite letter
to google, they might consider doing something. You are others like
you are probably better customers than loon.

- quote -

Again I am mystified. Are you saying there was no change
because we are not better off? [I tried to explicity disclaim
the direction of change "for better or worse"].

- quote -

It depends on where. Most places on left and right coasts,
yes. Less so in flyover country. This isn't a change which
started in the 1960s? Or it's only a minor [fashion] change?

- quote -

I never claimed this had changed, certainly not in the 1960s.

- quote -

Dear me, who hurt you so? Effectiveness is a product of trust
and competence. One obviously doesn't go to an individual
like Gump for matters beyond his abilities.

- quote -

Who supposes we should trust politicians? Anyone asking for
"trust" almost always should be automatically denied it.
Trust is earned by actions, not requested or traded.


-- Robert

In article <l8Bgj.603$gH2.572[at]newsfe02.lga> ,
The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet[at]gmail.com> wrote:

- quote -

You asked me what filter I use to killfile MI5 guy. Well, I looked at
googlegroups to see which messages I'm not getting (wasn't even aware
how many there are!), but now I realize that it's my ISP that filters
them not my newsreader's killfile. The MI5 messages are not on my ISP's
news server.

I think your best route of action is to get your ISP to filter them, or
change to an ISP that already does. I use Earthlink.

--
~RT

Robert Redelmeier wrote:

- quote -

Vandalism in general is a crime, even if the punishment is laughable.
We are not required -- or even permitted -- to take on vandals
ourselves; if we were, there might be fewer living vandals.
Spam/sporge is vandalism to our communication system -- a public good
which deserves public protection.

If they can stop highway construction because it threatens 100 frogs,
surely SOMETHING can be done about MI5-loon and his ilk.

Yeah, there are already way too many laws, but is it likely that
MI5-loon will sue google for violating his civil rights if google just
shuts him down? And if he does, how likely is he to prevail?

- quote -

Pretty much, yeah. Are we all better off than we were in the 50s?

Technology is better, sure. Are black, brown and white children
educated equally now? Probably not, especially in super-poor inner-city
areas, but ALL public education has gone down the tubes so it's probably
a wash. Are we better off economically? In general, two incomes are
required to support a family now.

Is medicine better or worse? My family and I haven't required much so
I'm not really in a position to know, but I do know that we're spending
a lot more on insurance+actual health care even when we don't use it
than we did when I was a kid.

Corporate women still have to wear high heels if they want to be
recognized as professionals rather than coffee girls. Appearance still
matters way more for women than for men, even when it's irrelevant. Oh,
wait, men are moisturizing now so I guess everything has evened out.

- quote -

Would you trust him to make laws for you? I wouldn't. How about
investments? How about driving? How about educating your children?
Trust has less to do with others' honesty than their competence.

- quote -

As are politicians, but we're supposed to be able to "trust" them to do
the will of the people. You think they do? HAH.

--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~
"Why put fault tolerance in the OS, when it's already built
into the User?" -- Steve Shaw, regarding Win95

The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet[at]gmail.com> wrote in part:
- quote -

OK, so hire a programmer to do it for you. Or use a different
program. Complaining without being willing to take available
action yourself is at best weakness and at worst domineering.


- quote -

Discussion is a necessary pre-requisite for solution. And
after discussion, the consensus solution may be to do nothing.
Nothing says that solutions others choose will satisfy you.

- quote -


I am very uncertain what you are arguing here. Do you still
maintain the changes in the late 1960s were all a matter of
fashion devoid of substance?

As for your question:
- quote -

I certainly do! I see no correlation between intelligence and
trustability. Intelligence is merely reasoning power. Trustability
has to do with non-predator ethics. Forrest Gump was demonstrably
a moron but eminently trustable. Wall.St financial wizards are
intelligent, but at least some are rapacious and untrustable.


-- Robert

Robert Redelmeier wrote:

- quote -

(1) The first has been a festering sore forever; people may actually be
working on it now, but there are no promises. (2) If I wanted to
program, I'd program. I tried it and hated it. I can't think in
increments that small.

- quote -

I don't mind new and creative wrangles, but some things get really old
really fast. I don't read articles about homeopathy either.

- quote -

Discussion is very different from solution.

- quote -

My mom was a bookkeeper in the 40s and the VP of a steel tubing company
in the 70s. Rosie the Riveter gave back her job after the war. Nice of
her, but if she'd kept it things would probably be a lot different now.

- quote -

Yeah, when race-based slavery was outlawed a lot of changes happened too.

- quote -

I think that's a consequence of the dumbing down of the populace, which
can only get worse. I sure don't trust anybody dumber than I am, do you?

When I went to school there was NO homework in elementary school, NO
"teacher conference" days, and parental involvement was discouraged.
We managed to learn to read and write anyway and socialization was
supposed to be done at home. Apparently the reverse is true now, but
most parents aren't able to do their part. Neither are the teachers.
Hell in a handbasket.

- quote -

Depends on the person. I don't think there's a single entity, group or
individual, better able to make choices for me than I am.

- quote -

Perhaps at the upper end. The only ditch diggers you can find now are
on the public payroll and it takes 6 of them and 2 supervisors to fill a
pothole.

--
Cheers,
Bev
- quote -

The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet[at]gmail.com> wrote in part:
- quote -

This would make him/her both more filterable and vulnerable
to side-channel discipline (crashing auctions).

- quote -

Yours might and some other too, but it is the psychological
error of "projection" to assume everyone is (or should be)
like you. Observe the data and embrace the diversity.

- quote -

No, there is a much higher incidence of newbie posters.
Some small fraction of whom become longer term contributors.

- quote -

They definitely have a place for certain subjects, particularly
rarer interests or those requiring more confidnetiality.

- quote -

Think longer term. Some people will learn after being
deceived. Not all. But reducing deceit merely produces a more
credulous population more subject to catastrophic subversion.
There is an omptimum level. Maybe the NYT is it?

- quote -

I do not. I agree that googlegroops in the new AOL and it's
permanent September there. I disagree that newbies are worthless.
We all start somewhere, and I'm not surprised at googlegroups
since many people equate WWW with the Internet.

- quote -

Make a feature request or modify the source yourself!

- quote -

For those who judge Otis a problem.

- quote -

That s/he most definitely is. A clear case of EMP -- true
SPAM across the big 8. More sophisticated that it appears
since there are filters of long standing against this sort
of thing. I think the subject of some discussion in NANAE.

- quote -

Perhaps, but notice I did not say "liberation". Don't most
revolutions merely change the direction of required conformism?
These certainly did change. Do not let the window-dressing
distract you from big underlying changes (for better or worse):

- increased female participation in the workforce;
- widespread divorce, abortion and birth control
(effects largely unstudied but likely to be large);
- demonetarization of silver and gold
- increased skepticism and mistrust of traditional power structures
(government, megacorps, schools, church, family)
- increased reliance on alledged individual choice. Most often
actually increased influence of friends and ad-hoc groups.
- increased vocational and social mobility


-- Robert

Robert Redelmeier wrote:

- quote -

Perhaps, but I've watched one since 1999 with no diminution of effort.
He's just changed the pattern -- instead of 30 posts per day he does a
couple of hundred over a few days and then retreats to his ebay business.

Some interests abide. Mine certainly have. I subscribe to 50 or so
newsgroups, but read only half a dozen (on this server, anyway)
regularly. The others are there mainly for reference if I need information.

- quote -

Not as a percentage of either posts or posters.

- quote -

It just depends on the alternatives. Sometimes private members-only
mail lists take up the slack.

- quote -

No. Misinformation doesn't make people more critical, it just convinces
the less critical or more credulous to vote for <incompetent/dishonest
candidate> .

- quote -

It would be pretty to think so. Some say that anyting posted via
googlegroups isn't worth reading and I pretty much agree.
Unfortunately, there is no way for TB to killfile it.

The Otis-problem (sincere misguidedness) can be solved even by
killfile-challenged Thunderbird users; the MI5 jerk is in a different
class, one who regards vandalism as proper vengeance for whatever
grievances he believes he's suffered. I like vengeance movies as well
as the next guy (maybe better), but that doesn't mean I actually go out
looking for random strangers to kill.

- quote -

WHAT soft revolutions of the late 60s? Those people were just as
conformist as the nice 50s ladies and gentlemen in heels, pearls, suits
and hats. People have ALWAYS been conformist, it's just the fashion
that changes.

--
Cheers, Bev
---------------------------------- Always carry a length of fiber-optic cable in your pocket. Should
you be shipwrecked and find yourself stranded on a desert island,
bury the cable in the sand. A few hours later, a guy driving a
backhoe will be along to dig it up. Ask him to rescue you.